Talk:DBM Power Levels
Combine *I motion that we combine all of these "power level pages" together, because this mess is getting ridiculous. We don't need three different sections for non-official power levels. You guys can put these on your userpages. Eugar (talk) Please sign your name with either your login or ip. This will make it much easier for me. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:48, January 23, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan I tided the numbers up look as neat and accurate as I can, using your multipliers. First of all: U12 Trunks > U13 Vegeta U12 Trunks was way too low before: In one of the mini comics of Dragon Ball Z Multiverse: (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/strip-30.html). U18 Vegeta joked that U13 Vegeta was half strong as him. I know that it might not be part of the story. But I see that as a reason to not take this line at face value because it's the only thing we have that gives us an idea of where U13 Vegeta stands in comparison to U18 Vegeta powerwise. And considering how strong U18 Vegeta has gotten (stronger than Super Bojack just as just a super saiyan) that would put U13 Vegeta similar in strentgh to Cell Games FP SSJ (more than likely Cell Games Gohan). U13 Vegeta is fairly strong himself, (Well above the 1st Cell Jr). However (U12) USSJ Trunks was still able to somewhat keep up with (U18) SSJ2 Vegeta, even hit and damage him at times. If they (U12 Trunks and U18 Vegeta) would've both fight as just SSJ's the battle would have gone the same. That puts a decisive but but too big gap between U12 Trunks and U13 Vegeta. U12 Trunks is powerful enough to damage U18 Vegeta, but U18 Vegeta would just tank any punches or kicks from his U13 counterpart with because U13 Vegeta is half as strong as U18 Vegeta. A 2x diffrence is a tanking difference, barring big ki blast attacks (Kamehameha, Galick Gun, Special Beam Cannon, Tri Beam, Destructo Disc, Masenko, etc) the fighter that is 2x stronger won't feel a thing. --- I fixed the gap between Andriod 16 and 17 there is a 3-3.5 gap between then. Piccolo (Kami) = 17: Piccolo fired a Light Grenade (an attack 3+x Piccolo's strength or exhausted strength) at Imperfect Cell (Post Humans), and Perfect Cell took it with little to no damage. Cell needs to be at least little stronger than that to not be affected by it. 16 fought evenly with this very same Cell. The gap between Cell and 17 can't be ignored. 16: 2,400,000,000 Cell: 2,400,000,000 Light Grenade: 2,250,000,000 Piccolo (Kami): 750,000,000 / (Tired): 675,000,000 17: 750,000,000 -- Zangya is the strongest of Bojacks henchmen, due to being the apparent leader of the pack after Bojack. She, Bido and Bujin were able to bring down FPSSJ Gohan (movie 9). In order for that to happen at least one of them had to be within the same tier of strength as him. They are weaker than Gohan sure, but at least one of them was powerful enough to give FPSSJ Gohan troubles. When a group of inferior fighters gang up against a superior fighter, it doesn't exactly tend to work very well most the time. So at least one of the three (Zangya, Bido or Bujin), has to be FP SSJ tier, for the 2's help to be enough to knock Gohan down without making use of their immobilization rays. Zangya seems to be the one as she had the best performance against MSSJ Gohan, she deflects Gohan's ki blast and trades blows with him. That not something an ASSJ can do, let alone a weakling like 18. Zangya can probably take down Gohan alone and is at least stronger than a cell jr based on her fight with Gohan (maybe even equaling MSSJ Goku Cell Games). It goes: Base Bojack = MSSJ Gohan >>= Zangya > Cell Jr >= Bido >>= SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks > Bujin >> Kogu. Percentage Gaps: ''' '''100%-96%: Equal or About equal ( = or >= ) 95%-89.5%: Rivaling or'' Slight advantage ( >>= ) ' '''89%- 83%: Moderate advantage ( > ) ' 82.5%-76%: Huge advantage ( >> ) 75%-66%: Decisive Edge ( >>> ) 65%-60%: One shot range or weaker fighter can't see stronger opponents movements ''' '''59%-51%: Weaker fighter's punches aren't very effective 50%-40%: Tanking punches and kicks --- Why Frieza at 150,00,000 you'd ask? well I gave Frieza the power gain from his Mecha body from the Trunks Saga. Frieza at 150,000,000 Cooler at 120,000,000 King Cold at 100,000,000 Seems to beatifully account for the (100,000,000 - 150,000,000) Frieza Tier. - Cooler Asended form: 300,000,000 (2.5x Cooler regular form) King Cold (first suppression): 450,000,000 (4.5x King Cold second suppression) King Cold (true form): 2,250,000,000 (5x King Cold first suppression) --- SSJ Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (beginning of battle) Vegito had the complete advantage at first, it wasn't until Broly strength suddenly doubled that Broly started turning the tide. LSSJ Broly only needs to be > SSJ2 Vegito. U4 Buu only mention that Broly is stronger than SSJ2 near the end of the fight. Not only that but he said "he might have to end this fight" meaning he can likely handle Broly at his current level. LSSJ Broly (End of Fight) doesn't have to be near SSJ3 Vegito, even the tier chart says this. SSJ3 Vegito >> Zen Buu > LSSJ Broly (End of Fight) >> SSJ2 Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (During Fight) and rising >> SSJ Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (BoF) SSJ3 tier-''' Base Broly 'In Between tier- '''Base Vegito '''SSJ4 tier- ' SSJ Broly 'SSJ5 tier- ' LSSJ Broly / SSJ Vegito 'SSJ6 tier- '''SSJ2 Vegito / LSSJ Broly (end) '''Above SSJ6 tier-' SSJ3 Vegito 71.126.140.192 ---- Well Saligir said that being half as strong was an estimate. Still, yours are good. I was just slightly following the tiers list. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:19, January 28, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan Technique mmultiplication is inconsistent in dbz later on. For example, Kaio-ken times 20 kamehameha didn't kill Frieza, if the times forlua applied, it would most likey do much more to frieza. Zendarmanitan (talk) 22:26, January 29, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan *'''You are vastly overrating 17 and 18. I would doubt the present andriods are than 5x SSJ Goku (Namek) tops. Not to mention that the comic is referencing the future andriods. Present Andriods >> Future Andriods was stated. Especially with this DBM storyline stating that 17 and 18 are losing energy, I can't see how 17 or 18 can be in the billions at all . They would have had any trouble with Future Gohan if they were that strong, but they did have trouble which 'even without that losing energy statement impossible I light of that fact. *'To your of the the inconsistancies with ki blast in DBZ, Vegeta vs Recoome is a prime example. but to the KK 20x Goku firing at Kamehameha at 50% Frieza. Frieza used a small energy blast block that beam'. T'he ki amplification concept is still there later in the series. It not like it dissappeared or it was shafted. That scene with Piccolo and Cell was shown for a reason. To establish how much of a powerful freak Imperfect Cell had baecome compared to Piccolo and 17 after absorbing all those humans. More examples is SSJ2 Gohan choosing to counter FP Perfect Cell's Kamehameha with one of his own instead of deflecting it, SSJ Goku blowing up Cell torso or Krillins destructo disc slicing off Frieza's tail. They are many examples of Ki amplification demonstrated.' Still, absorbing some of Piccolo's energy didn't make Cell stronger than Piccolo so I don't understand how thousands of humans could have made him thrice as strong as Piccolo. Zendarmanitan (talk) 02:42, January 31, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan But he did become much stronger from absorbing many humans! The evidence is starring you right in the face! Cell went from being at a clear disadvantage against Piccolo to breaking his neck with one punch, basically beating Piccolo without any effort. That not something Cell belived he was capable of doing after he saw Piccolo regenerate his arm. But after absorbing all those people Cell showed up fully confident in himself and Piccolo had this I'm screwed look on his face.'' ''How can you deny that? ''http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KJKUl7yPso: ''Look at Piccolo's face after Cell goes to full power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp_7WgKolxc: Look at how effortlessly Cell takes Piccolo down. ''' '''There's multifold gap between Piccolo and Cell here. Several things in DBZ doesn't make sense. Gohan's plot device power gains throughout the series when the lazy bum doesn't do Sh** is, IMO at the top of the list. But the fact that Cell got more power from absorbing millions of people than the energy out of Piccolo's arm can't be denied. ' '''And again Cell took Piccolo's Light Grenade without any damage. The Light Grenade is Piccolo's most powerful attack otherwise he would have used The Special Beam Cannon ('a 3x amplifed attack of the users strength, the light is at least slightly superior. ' ''Yes there are a few inconsistancies but most of the time ki amplification is accurately demonstrated. Cell needs to be at least a little bit stronger than Piccolo's attack to recieve no damage from it plain and simple. ' ''And again why is 17 and 18 in the billions? This first question isn't necessarily aimed at you but I still have to ask, seriously what's with this wikis obession with 18 being strong? '' She's an insignificant piece of trash the second Cell arrives. Nothing in the manga supports or remotely hints at her having any sort of relevancy after Piccolo's fight with 17. She may be above Frieza and Android saga Super Saiyan, but I strongly doubt she's any more than 5-6x Frieza. The andriods are not in the billions escepially with a storyline suggesting they are losing power. And if she isn't 6x Frieza, 17 isn't either. ''' '''So, my question directed to you is why 17 and 18 need to be in the the billions? Give me a good reason for that belief. Piccolo deflected Cells special beam canon the first time so does that mean he's 3 times stronger than him? No. Zendarmanitan (talk) 00:32, February 1, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c362/10-1 http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c362/10-2 http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c364/10-1 That anime filler scene doesn't count. He didn't deflect a no Special Beam Canon in the manga, so of course he's not 3 times stronger then Cell. If he could deflect a special beam cannon, why would he be afraid of a Kamehameha? I agree that 18 is not as strong as people think. Zendarmanitan (talk) 03:12, February 1, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan Of course she's not. Glad you see that as well. I can actually see Androids with a power level around billions (not something exceeding though). Let's base this on: 18 > 17 = Piccolo (fused with Kami, pre ROSAT) >> SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga) >> Frieza. Frieza had a power level of 120,000,000. And I think it is safe to assume SSJ Vegeta was at lest 3x stronger (after his training is pretty re''asonable.) ''This would place Vegeta with a power level around 360,000,000. Based on what we see on the Piccolo vs 17 fight, I'd say they are both at least 2.5x stronger than Vegeta, placing each one of them with a power level of 900,000,000. Knowing 18 is slightly stronger than 17, by at least 10%-15% (if not the gap between them would be unnoticeable), that would place her with a power level of something around 990,000,000. Those are present androids. Future Androids: as U9 Yamcha stated, the decresing energy is a slow process, so the difference between present and future androids isn't actually really big, around 20% (remember Future Androids were still perfectly able to handle a Super Saiyan). So according to this, I'd place them like this, pretty close to the billion: Android 17 - 900,000,000 Android 18 - 990,000,000 Future Android 17 - 720,000,000 Future Android 18 - 800,000,000 15:16, February 1, 2013 (UTC) '''''I agree somewhat: On your "Andriod saga SSJ Vegeta >>> Frieza (Full Power)" and statement the he 3 times Frieza I have no complaints about that. I agree on that, maybe he's even as much as 4x Mecha Frieza. ''' - '''But I don't agree at all about Piccolo being 2.5x SSJ Vegeta. And it has solely to do with Vegeta's performance against 18. Even after 18 went to force force it was like she was tanking SSJ Vegeta's attacks (and with 2.5x gap, tanking punches and kicks would be easy). 18's gap on SSJ Vegeta was no more than than ASSJ Vegeta's gap on Semi Perfect Cell or SSJ Vegeta gap on Andriod 19 (Post Goku's Energy). All three gaps are roughly 1.5x gaps: ASSJ Vegeta: 7,500,000,000 vs. Semi Cell: 5,000,000,000 Andriod 19 (Post Goku's Energy): 450,000,000 vs. SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 18: 900,000,000 vs. SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 All Vegeta said is that Piccolo's power after fusing with kami is beyond his own as a SSJ. Not that it was 2.5x his. I can easily place the numbers like this and the manga statements stay true. Mecha Frieza: 150,000,000 SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 18: 900,000,000 17: 825,000,000 I actually agree on this. According to your conclussion, I think I proved Androids are way more than 5x stronger than Frieza. They are 7.5x stronger minimum. But there's a thing I actually have to say, you placed ASSJ Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell way too high. Imperfect Cell is 3x stronger than 17. So that would place him with a power level of 2,475,000,000. And absorbing 17 made Cell exactly 1.5x stronger, something that would place him with a power level of 3,712,500,000. According to you, ASSJ Vegeta is 1.5x stronger than Semi Perfect Cell, something that would give us an exact power level of 5,568,750,000. Remember Saiyans aren't THAT strong... That's all I have to say, I agree on the rest. 15:24, February 2, 2013 (UTC) This is not me disagree with what you're saying it's just me better explaining my POV on the Cell Saga gaps. If you have any disagreements, please say so. ' '''The I'd rank the main gaps like this: ' '''1. Imperfect Cell (post humans) on Android 17 and Piccolo: ''3x gap '' I think this is the biggest gap in the Cell arc. Not only is Piccolo one shot material for Cell. But Cell tanked a fully charged Light Grenade from Piccolo..not even a scratch. Piccolo's most powerful ki blast is nothing to him. I think at minimum Piccolo's ki amplification here is greater than a Kamehameha from Goku in the Saiyan arc..admittedly that's conjecture but it makes sense judging by him calling Imperfect Cell's KHH "pathetic" . ''' ''--'' '''2. Perfect Cell ("warming up" suppression) on SSJG2 Vegeta: ''2.5x gap '' Another huge gap, Cell tanked Vegeta's full forced kick to the neck and just laughed it off. I rank this gap larger than gap 3 because in my opinion there is also evidence from Cell's assurance in taking on Vegeta's amplified blast (Final Flash) that Cell can take on a Galick Gun from Vegeta, but I say 'take on' and not 'tank' because he clenched his fists and put them out as if he thought he knew he was in for a struggle/had to brace himself. Cell should be aware of Vegeta's amplification abilities from the Saiyan arc and Galick Gun was Vegeta's most powerful attack up until Big Bang and Final Flash which Cell is un aware of. Of course the Final Flash was insanely amplified and Cell realized that a little too late..only when it was released. ''' -- '''3. Semi Cell on Android 16: ''2x gap'' This is also a huge gap, I can't see Android 16 being any more 50% of Semi Cell here. I mean to just tank a punch to the face without so much as even budging? Huge gap here. That is one of the most beastly physical tanks in the serious..it's Brolyesque, lol. ''-- '' 4. SSJ2 Kid Gohan on Perfect Cell (full power):'' 1.6- 1.8x gap IMO ''' This is another large gap..totally ass kick, tank physical attacks, and one-two shot fodder type of gap. Cell goes full power and does a monstrous power up, but Gohan still tanks Cell's sucker punch right to the face. I do notice that Gohan's tank here is less impressive than Semi Cell's on 16, that's why I have it below. Also Gohan chooses to fire back his own Kamehameha against Cell's fully charged Kamehameha instead of just kicking/punting it back like Freeza did to Vegeta for example. In my opinion this suggests at minimum Cell's most amplified blast would be troublesome to Gohan physically and he can in no way counter physically, much less tank. ''' ''-- '' ''5.'''' SSJG2 Vegeta on Semi Cell (full power) = SSj Vegeta on Android 19 (Post SSJ Goku's Energy):'' 1.5x gap''' Another virtual tanking gap. Cell powers up to full power and Trunks and Vegeta note it's a big increase..but Vegeta is unimpressed. Cell charges Vegeta and hits him right in the face, draws small blood, but Vegeta has taken very little damage. Vegeta then beats around Cell effortlessly and tells Cell that finishing him off will be frivolous. It should be noted this gap in the anime is haxed..it's even bigger. Cell fires a (what didn't look to be very amplified) Galick Gun at Vegeta takes 0 damage..which really doesn't even make much sense so I'd throw that out for consistency. ''' '''As far as Android 19 Goku fight vs SSJ Vegeta, it's roughly the size of the gap Super Vegeta had on Semi Cell IMO. Vegeta's tanks were very similar in both fights, Vegeta's lip bleed slightly and his head was pushed back pretty far. Vegeta's blows were hurtful but they didnt show quite the damage Kid Gohan's blows could do to FP Cell for instance. '--' 7. Andriod 18 on SSJ Vegeta: ''' ''For now I see it as 1.33-1.4x gap '' 'After thinking about this gap more I'd have to say Android 18 vs Vegeta was very difficult for me to place. It really all comes down to her effort as well as whether or not you believe she actually tanked a Vegeta's punch. When Vegeta went flying to her she put her knee up which caused Vegeta to cought out blood, at the same time Vegeta punched her and she looked unphased..but I seriously believe all of the force behind Vegeta's punch were taken away by her knee to his stomach. Other than that, she showed no ability at all to one shot Vegeta or anything..so I'd say it's roughly the size, maybe even slightly smaller than the gap Vegeta had on 19 or Semi Cell. ' ''-- '' '''8. Kamiccolo on Imperfect Cell (pre humans absorbed): '1.2x -1.25x gap' Well this should be a pretty significant gap...but certainly not 1.3x or anything..not tanking physical blows or one or two shot level. Piccolo dodges Cell's Kamehameha so that to me implies Piccolo certainly can't tank it. In the short lived fight, Piccolo shows superiority to Cell, but it's not an ownage. Eventually Cell runs away. Also Android 16 said during the battle between Cell and Piccolo that it was between "two huge powers". But he added that only one of the fighters (Piccolo) rivaled Android 17 and 18. ''' '''by contributer 71.126.140.192: 20:47 February 2, 2013 1. I agree. Piccolo's weakened Light Grenade did not damage Cell at all (and this attack is a 3x amplifier) so 3x is a perfect difference. 2. Around 2x and 2.5x I'd say, but yeah, I can agree with you here. 3. I'd have disagree on this one. Cell is stated to grow 1.5x stronger after absorbing 17. And it makes perfect sense, since being 1.5x stronger is enough to tank a punch. 2x stronger would give us too high further power levels. 4. As you said, this gap isn't as big as the one between 16 and Cell, so according to my previous point, I'd have to say there is a difference of 1.35x-1.4x. 5. I agree, and I'll use this point as example to explain my numbers 3 and 7; as you said, 1.5x is enough to tank and attack or take little to no damage, so Cell being 1.5x stronger than 16 and tanking his attack would make perfect sense. 2x stronger would be excessive in my opinion. And on number 7, you must have in mind that 18 tends to fight suppressing her power. When she actually decided to fight seriously, she compltely dominated Vegeta, who wasn't even able to land a single punch on her (to the point of beng 1.5x stronger or even more, but let's leave it on 1.5x.) 6. You missed number six. Haha. 7. I'd say at least 1.5x is actually correct. She was fighting suppressed, when she decided to fight seriously she complitely dominated Vegeta and even knocked out Trunks with a single hit. Plus also have in mind that the difference between 18 and 17 is around 1.1x-1.15x. If the difference between Vegeta and 18 was around 1.3x-1.4x, 17 (who is weaker than 18), would be actually placed close to Vegeta's level, and he still remains much stronger than him. 8. And I agree on this last one. Nothing to say here. 19:31, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Number 6 was tied for 5th. Vegeta vs. 19 (Goku's Energy) = Semi Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta So that would make (Vegeta vs 19) number 6. I put them together because the 2 gaps are the same: (These links prove it) http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/343/13.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/343/14.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/378/12.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/378/13.html I should have been clearer on that the first time, I about that. No, I'm pretty sure Vegeta was more surpressed against 19. Zendarmanitan (talk) 00:41, February 5, 2013 (UTC) zendarmanitan Suppressed? He wasn't suppresed in either fight. My eyes tell me that Cell did no better than 19, especially in the manga. The thing is the power advantages Vegeta had over each of them respectfully kinda makes it hard to see that. They both didn't give Vegeta much of a test at all, and he called both them trash compared to him. ' '''He went to full power before the start of battles against both them. And he still can't perfectly tank either one of them. Vegeta has a similar semi tank over each of them after allowing them a free shot. There is no reason to assume he (Vegeta) was at any less than full power, because he (from the time he fought 19 to fighting 18 or from the fight with Semi Perfect Cell to fighting Perfect Cell) didn't do any major power ups 'in these two respective time periods. ' '''So we can determine Vegeta was at full power in both fights, even though he was equally nonchalant in both battles. Surpressed or not, 19 could be a 3-fold gap like raditz was to Goku. Semi Perfect Cell on the other hand couldn't be a 3-fold gap. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:46, February 5, 2013 (UTC) ^^^^ No way. I don't see how 19 vs. Vegeta can possibly be a 3x gap: ' '''Not only did Vegeta's head move when he was hit by 19, his lip was bleeding as well. Same thing happened when Semi Perfect Cell punched ASSJ Vegeta. If he can get a small cut just by getting punched in the face, then he can't block a big ki blast from 19, let alone a 2.5x amplifier like the Kamehamea. That's two things that didn't happen when 16 punched Cell. In fact I could argue the gap between Cell and 16 is no less than 2x. Even with a two times advantage I would doubt Cell would take a direct Kamehameha without a little. ' '16 to Semi Perfect gap >> SSJ Vegeta to 19 gap. ' '''The gap between 16 and Cell is 2x IMO. As long that fact is clear, there is no 3x advantage over 19 for SSJ Vegeta. If he was 3x stronger, we'd be seeing clear signs of that. 100% Frieza 100% Frieza = Base Fourth Frieza x 10 so his power needs to be added as 1,500,000,000. 07:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Where did you get that info? Ssj Goku was 150 million and beat his full power.Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:50, February 7, 2013 (UTC) *Im wrong, 100% Frieza is Frieza x2, at that time Frieza had a power of 60,000,000 and it doubled to 120,000,000. But in Multiverse he has 120,000,000 at base, so 100% = 240,000,000. And dont tell me that he never trained, he did, since the first time Cooler went fifth form was in the movie but here he can already do it, and King Cold trained to control his Fourth Form, so max Frieza = 240,000,000. 08:33, February 8, 2013 (UTC) Actually, Frieza's 100% is 120,000,000. His "base" form is 60,000,000. There are official power level guides that state so. And no, he never trained. The DBM manga itself states it. 17:56, February 8, 2013 (UTC) Nappa I reduced Nappa under Frieza. Happy? Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:41, February 8, 2013 (UTC) This page You know when I created that power level tier list based on Salagir's tiers and remove the older numbered list I thought people would forget the numbers but you created another list lol but I have a suggestin to you people, I suppose everybody here reads Bringer of Death right? The mod Davidstarling has a power level system that he developed to estimate numbered powerlevels aftre Freeza's saga, what about WE use them HERE? But with a few modifications of course. Fael955 (talk) 12:22, March 10, 2013 (UTC) That guys power levels are different from anything I ever saw. He's pretty good but I don't really believe in the 145 million boost cause that would mean Kaio-ken would be better. Zen's profile Zen's talk page 23:55, March 16, 2013 (UTC) Gotenks Does anyone think that they're laying a bit too thick on Gotenk's power level. When he was still a kid, as Super Saiyan 3, he was only a bit stronger than regular Super Buu, who is a SSJ3 tier, and now he suddenly skyrockets to a SSJ5 tier. And Goten and Trunks never trained much, so their power did not increase that much after Buu saga. --FearItself34 (talk) 06:47, March 16, 2013 (UTC)FearItself34 Yeah and they made Goku and Vegeta's power basically the same. Goten and Trunks didn't train while Vegeta and Goku did yet Gotenks is that high above them now. It makes no sense. Zen's profile Zen's talk page 23:50, March 16, 2013 (UTC) So, should we change it? --FearItself34 (talk) 05:44, March 17, 2013 (UTC) We can't go against the logic of the creators. Zen's profile Zen's talk page 23:11, March 18, 2013 (UTC) we could slightly lower it though. Zen's profile Zen's talk page 23:13, March 18, 2013 (UTC) Only that Super Buu isn't really SSj3 tier. In the original DBZ manga he was way, way above SSj3 Goku. So was Gotenks. Everything's fine. Xfing (talk) 16:48, April 8, 2013 (UTC) The LSSj misconception I know that the authors of Multiverse have worked on the assumption that power in LSSj continuously rises, hence why Broly was able to get to a level of Vegito. In actuality it is ridiculous, though. In Movie 8 Broly would get one-shotted by a Super Saiyan 2, while in Movie 10 he would have probably lost to SSj2 Goku - while a SSj3 would blow him away with a sneeze. And we all know how far above SSj3 Goku Vegito is. What Broly's form does is constantly increase his Ki, indeed. But it's not like his body can simply take it and increase the powerlevel continuously. If his power grows too high, he does some violent discharge or something and gets back to normal. Think of it like pouring water from a continuously open tap into a glass. If you knock the glass over, the water will pour out, but it will get replenished by the water from the tap if you set it below the stream again. But when the glass is full, more water will just overflow, since the glass can't contain it anyway. That's not to say Broly's transformation's ability isn't useful. Stuff like sustaining wounds, using large ki charging attacks or regenerating has been known to drain one's ki, and in turn lower their powerlevel. So if Broly got seriously wounded, it would take several minutes or less for him to return to full strength, while another warrior even with the same powerlevel would not be able to do it. This effectively gives Broly infinite stamina, something that no other SSj form can ever grant. It's still a huge perk in my opinion. But it doesn't actually mean that Broly's PL keeps rising without end. There's only so much ki any body at a particular level of training can take, more will just leak out. This has been shown with USSj, and I believe Broly is no different. I know Broly's a well-liked character among many fans (even though he's non-canon) and I'm not trying to bash him. I like him a lot myself. But I felt like clearing up this misconception. Of course, the rules of DBM's universe can be bent by the authors, so in DBM Broly's power may indeed have been rising if the authors so wish. I appreciate DBM and read it, as it's a lot of fun. Keep up the good work. Xfing (talk) 16:45, April 8, 2013 (UTC) This seems incredibly bloated Salagir said he thought that none of the base saiyans ever surpassed Freeza. Yet here you have shit like base Trunks being at 25 billion? I can give this page a major revamp, but I want to know where such large numbers came from in the first place before I attempt to.--RandomGuy96 (talk) 21:54, May 17, 2013 (UTC) :Okay, I started my revamp. It's a big task. I'm trying to follow that chart on the Power Levels page and Salagir's statement that the base saiyans are weaker than Freeza.--RandomGuy96 (talk) 09:20, May 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Okay. Never mind what I said. The Power Pyramid is apparently fan made. And incredibly unworkable at that. But still, a revamp is needed due to Salagir stating base saiyans < Freeza.--RandomGuy96 (talk) 10:32, May 18, 2013 (UTC) For those confused about the numbers I came up with to make Salagir's placements work: here are some of the "main series" numbers not already listed on the page, like Cell's and Dabura's: CELL SAGA Mecha Frieza (100%, unseen, used 70% vs Trunks): 140,000,000 SS Future Trunks (first appearance):' '''160,000,000 SS Yardrat Goku: 175,000,000 Movie 5 Goku post-zenkai: 260,000,000 Android Arc SS Vegeta: 325,000,000 Android Arc SS Goku: 310,000,000 Android 18: 380,000,000 Kamiccolo: 400,000,000 Android 17: 380,000,000 Imperfect Cell post-humans: 700,000,000 '''BUU SAGA' Gotenks SS (pre-ROSAT):' '''36,000,000,000 Gotenks SS: 45,000,000,000 Gotenks SS3: 90,000,000,000 Super Buu: 72,000,000,000 Buff Buu: 80,000,000,000 Kid Buu: 45,000,000,000 SS3 Goku: 40,000,000,000 Fat Buu: 32,000,000,000 Majin Vegeta: 10,500,000,000 On Buu: Super is stated to be slightly weaker than Buff but much greater than Kid. Buff is just Kid + South Kaioshin. Super is restrained very slightly by Dai Kaioshin. Fat Buu is stated to be weaker than all the other Buus and SS Gotenks, but well above any of the non-fused SS2s. Basically I see it as Buff = SK + Kid, Super = Buff + Kid - 10%, and Fat = Kid - DK (with SK's power being sealed away, only to be reawakened when Super Buu forms). That's why the Kaioshin are where they are. 18:05, May 23, 2013 (UTC) EDIT: Okay, made a major revamp to levels beyond the Fusion Saga. Salagir said that he considers Goku in the same tier as Super Buu (though on the low end, while Super Buu is on the high end) . This obviously doesn't gel with the multi-fold difference that was stated to be between them in the Buu Saga, nor does it gel with his South Kaioshin not roflstomping Fat Buu, and him saying that SS boosts and base limits are different for fusees. So I decided to revamp this with one assumption: Gotenks' SS3 multiplier is x2 his SS, not x8. As a result a lot of people are weaker. '''Then, he is flat out wrong. As stated millions of times by now, Goku outright refused to escaped buu's body to fight Super Buu. And it not because of some size reference or a need to spare Vegeta's feelings or any other excuse Goku nuthuggers use to deny this. Goku refused to fight because his chances of winning are absolutely 0 even with Vegeta's help. Think back to the Frieza saga, when Goku was the strongest person around to fight Frieza. and when Frieza goes to 50% full power to kick Goku ass (even with KKx10, Frieza was still a little more than twice as strong) yet Goku still fought. My point is by bringing this up is to show that Goku isn't the kind of guy to just refuse to fight if he's within the same realm/tier of power. For Goku to refuse to fight Super Buu, that to me says a lot about the power difference between Goku and Super Buu. Goku says he has no chance, it's best not to doubt him.' Super Buu vs. Goku gap >>>>>> 50% Frieza vs. KKx10 Goku gap Total Page Revamp Okay. So. It took a week but I finally finished that total page revamp that fits the base saiyans being weaker than Freeza and cleaned up the numerous basic grammar and formatting mistakes on this page. If anyone has a problem with the levels I used, feel free to discuss it here.--RandomGuy96 (talk) 20:18, May 22, 2013 (UTC) 03:59, May 27, 2013 (UTC) SSJ3 Goku is STRONGER than Mystic Gohan, Guys No he's not. I know the people on here seem to be in unanimous agreement that Mystic Gohan is somehow way stronger (four times as strong, actually) than SSJ3 Goku, but for the reasons that I explain in detail below, this idea is just idiotic, and ignores a number of established facts from the Manga, the DBZ Films/Anime, and (possibly) the actual Novelization of DBM: Okay, so for one thing (and this argument won't convince everybody since it's based on one of the movies, so for further arguments that might seem more convincing, see the later paragraphs below), it is clear that Dragon Ball Multiverse follows a continuity in which the events of the movie with Tapion and Hirudegarn took place at some point in the past of Universe 18. Now, I dunno who else here has seen that movie, but it was OBVIOUS in that movie that due to Goku's training, he had become significantly stronger than Mystic Gohan as a SSJ3. . .Mystic Gohan was basically one-shot K.O.'d by Hirudegarn, and was BARELY able to fight against just Hirudegarn's lower-half, in the movie, while SSJ3 Goku basically single-handedly beat up on Hirudegarn, even after Hirudegarn entered his "chrysalis" phase and metamorphosized into an even more powerful form. Of course, it took Goku's Dragon-Punch technique to finally completely destroy Hirudegarn in the movie, and it is quite obvious that the Dragon Punch is one of the most extreme examples of "ki amplificiation" as people in this talk-section have been calling it. . .but, even before finally resorting to using the Dragon Punch to effectively spike his ki several dozen times, SSJ3 Goku was still able to put up a good fight against Hirudegarn, an opponent far beyond Mystic Gohan's level, with just his "normal" punches, kicks, kamehameha, etc, while in SSJ3 form. Non Canon! Goku's stronger in that movie but not in Canon. Okay, now for an argument not based on something totally non-canon like the movies Basically, people seem to be basing the assumption that Mystic Gohan is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, on Salagir's official statement (see: http://dragonballmultiverse.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Levels) that "Goku (DBZ)" falls into the category of "standard Super Saiyan Three Level power," while Mystic Gohan falls into the "In-Between" level one tier above that. Except is not an assumption, it's a fact. But, notice that Salagir only stated that about DBZ GOKU, meaning GOKU BACK DURING THE ACTUAL ORIGINAL, CANON MANGA AND ANIME. Salagir never once implied that Goku, by the time of the tournament in DBM (ten whole years after the end of the series) hasn't actually SURPASSED the level of a "typical" Super Saiyan Three, and entered the "In-Between" tier as a result. Notice that, in the official statement about "tiers" of power from Salagir, he places what he calls "Base Vegetto (DBZ)" in a tier BELOW "Base Vegetto" (DBM), meaning that in the ten years since he was first "born," Vegetto's base-power has increased by an entire "tier" of ability. It would stand to reason, based on this, that Goku, since he has a habit of always training as brutally and as hard as possible, and himself is one half of Vegetto's personality, would have advanced by a whole tier in Universe 18. While Gohan, being the lazy brat that he is when it comes to training, should not have gotten the least bit stronger since the end of the Manga. And so, I believe that Super Saiyan Three Goku AS OF THE TOURNAMENT IN DBM, should be placed in the "in-between" tier, and that the rankings in this tier should go: Mystic Gohan << SSJ3 Goku<< Base Vegetto< Super Saiyan Bra. No, SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Bra =< Mystic Gohan < Base Vegito ' I should also add that I have been told by a number of people who have read the DBM Novelizations, that it states outright in the novel that by the time of the Tournament in DBM, SSJ3 Goku is now stronger than Mystic Gohan. And isn't the novelization written by the same guys as the webcomic? I myself have not read the novel, though, so if anyone can confirm or deny one and for all that it says in there that Gohan< SSJ3 Goku, get over it! ' 03:59, May 27, 2013 (UTC) Did anyone noticed Tien was stronger than cell or Bra(16) or Super Saiyan 2 Goku or Vegeta. He's even stronger then himself is Kaio-Ken x20. ---- Bojacks Henchmen (barring Gokua) >>= Cell Jrs. Any form of Gotenks >> Piccolo It's not vandalism it's facts. -- Base Gotenks' only 'feats' come in the form of gags. So no, they're not facts. 'Piccolo allowed a guy (Base Gotenks) weaker than him talk to him like that and allowed him to leave to fight Fat Buu without kicking his (Gotenks) ass himself? I find that hard to believe. Gag or not Gotenks came back alive, I can't say the same for Dabura. In fact in the anime Base Gotenks did better than Dabura. ' 'If Piccolo was stronger than Base Gotenks and gags was the true purpose of the scene. They could've achieved that joke just as easily by having Piccolo kick his ass. Same thing. Goku said SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu at least, possibly slightly above SS3 Goku in strength. Divide that level by 50 and you get a level roughly just around SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) - At least Gotenks has something, Piccolo is not only significantly weaker than that but, he also has no Buu saga feats. None. ' The levels of Bojack's henchmen are cryptic and inconsistent in the movie; one minute we see them ganging up on Gohan and stomping him, the next one of them (Zangya) is having a ton of trouble with Trunks and needs help with him. 'I already told one guy this. Zangya was not having a ton of trouble against Trunks in fact she seemed to have a content look on her face to me. Bujin just jumped in when Zangya was already slightly in the advantage. They beat Gohan because they close enough to him to give him a beatdown with they're combined efforts. ' In another scene, Bido flees in fear from Vegeta. '''Because Vegeta's stronger, I'd can say it's more concerned than fleeing in fear. So placing them at Cell Jr level is probably the best, as they are film equivalents. If by them you mean Bujin and Bido than I agree somewhat. But Zangya was shown to somewhat superior to them, as she the best showing of the 3 peformance wise. Zangya > Bido ~ Cell Jr. > Bujin Furthermore, in the context of DBM, the novelization has them weaker than Trunks, who at the time was only equal to a Cell Jr. RandomGuy96 (talk) 04:51, July 11, 2013 (UTC) I never said multiverse SSJ Trunks was weaker than Zangya, I said movie 9 Trunks was weaker than her. As she is at least Slightly stronger than a Cell Jr and movie 9 SSJ Trunks was slightly below a Cell Jr. ---- I fixed Gotenks' level to match the Fusion formula because before it didn't match the fusion formula. 17 and 18 Android #17 is '''''weaker than #18 due to a programming flaw This is stated by Toriyama himself. Read here . *An actual manga scan above versus an unsourced image with very obvious fake text splashed over manga artwork. I wonder who we should believe...--RandomGuy96 (talk) 03:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)